Monday, June 19, 2006

Howell High School Flags are coming down

From the Argus

The rainbow-design diversity flag at Howell High School, the source of controversy for more than 18 months, is coming down this summer, according to both the club's faculty advisor and a spokesperson for the LOVE group that opposes the flag because it feels it endorses homosexuality.

A second flag, put up more recently by a traditional values club, will also be coming down.

I wonder if this issue is now over? Only time will tell.


Kevins said...

It’s sad that prejudice, intolerance and hate from the so-called love group prevailed. It’s a sad day for our community, tolerance and Civil Rights.
I hope the issue is not over. Unless, of course, one good thing does comes out of this, and that is that the hate group that goes by the inapt name of the love-pac crawls back under its rock.

patrick flynn said...

This is a great victory.

The lesson learned is that if you embark on a campaign to tell impressionable and vulnerable high school kids that homosexual behavior is acceptable and harmless, you will no go unchallenged by the pro-family majority of our community.

I am honored to be part of the LOVE organization.

Kevins said...

Again, intolerance, hate and prejudice wins out over fairness, tolerance and Civil Rights. All in the name of love? Sad.

Anonymous said...

That LOVE group is creepy.

Kevins said...

Agree.Scary too, that people still think like that.

Anonymous said...

Kevins said...
Again, intolerance, hate and prejudice wins out over fairness, tolerance and Civil Rights. All in the name of love? Sad.

I hope you arnt implying that sexual preferance is a right under the constutition.... Its NOT!

Count Me Red said...

Kevin S. - you are the only one who sounds intolerant here. It does not make sense that a Gay Pride Flag should represent Diversity on the walls of a Public High School. The flag was not hung to represent diversity, it was hung to protest the passage of the marriage amendment. You lefties should stop trying to change our Country. I've spoken to you about this issue before and you are very closed minded. What is creepy or scary about protecting our kids from a behavior that is very dangerous?

Anonymous said...

what is up with this

Al Qaeda-Linked Group Claims Kidnapping of GIs

RKG said...

I thought they should have used the diversity flag to fashion a loin-cloth for the "Decision Pending" statue at the Mill Pond in Brighton. That way they could have killed two birds with one stone - or maybe two stones with one bird.

Anonymous said...

I believe the problem here is that the flag is a diversity flag that does include homosexuals. Are you against including this group of people to be protected? Do you think it's okay to treat these people differently? I think it's very un Christian to not treat homosexuals equally.

Anonymous said...

News Flash you children either are homosexual or they are not homosexual. Maybe you had a choice, most people don't.

This we know to be true. There is no need to protect them from another persons sexuality. There is no pressure to join this group of people. They need to be protected from bullies.

Kevins said...

What I am saying is all men are created equal. We are all endowed with certain rights; among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and you can’t deny them even if you disagree with a certain group for some irrational reason.

Red, is that a nickname or your political bent, you're 100 percent correct, I am intolerant. of intolerance, like I have said every time this issue comes up, and I’m proud of that. This is a diversity flag, and only hatemongers like you see it as anything else. You are also right that I’m trying to change this country, but I am not a “leftist” I am a progressive and a liberal. We have the greatest country in the world. But it is not perfect, and we can do better than we are doing.

BigShot said...

One thing for certain Kevin is right that gay's should be treated like ordinary people. Though I disagree with there sexual prefrence, I still think that it is wrong to discriminate. Finnally my family's problem with the flag is that there is only one diversity flag, the American Flag. That should be the only diversity flag hung in a Public School.
Also I know the President of the Traditonal Values club personnally and he shares my opinion. He only wanted his flag up there that way it would get the Diversity flag down. Kevin, dont personnally attack anyone or a group unless you know them.

Count Me Red said...

You said and asked:
"I believe the problem here is that the flag is a diversity flag that does include homosexuals. Are you against including this group of people to be protected? Do you think it's okay to treat these people differently?"

YOU AREN'T LOOKING FOR SAME TREATMENT, YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SPECIAL TREATMENT, AND THAT IS WHAT I AM AGAINST. HANGING A GAY PRIDE FLAG THAT REPRESENTS HOMOSEXUALITY LEAVES OUT EVERYBODY ELSE FROM THE DISCUSSION. WE THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD BE PROTECTED (that is treating people the same) NOT JUST PROTECTION FOR HOMOSEXUALS. Personally I am not against homosexuality. I just don't think you should promote that lifestyle for children that are 14 to 18 years of age. Hanging their flag on the wall is promoting that lifestyle. There is no disputing the facts that homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle. Kids shouldn't be encouraged to have sex before they are married and homosexuality is sex. Sex is a choice you make. You can either do it or not do it. Sex is a verb, not a noun. There is apparently a need to protect our kids from another persons sexuality because you guys don't intend to quit until to have the whole world having sex with persons of the same gender. It somehow validates your own life if everyone else is doing it. Do what you want, but when you attempt to influence our kids, please expect a fight because I can guarantee you will get one.

Yes to the other anonymous, our kids do need to be protected from bullies. I agree 100%. But I am talking about ALL kids not just homosexual kids. What rights do you have that a fat kid or skinny kid, or kid with glasses or crooked teeth, or a kid that has freckles or whatever kids get teased about. You are one of the crowd, not more special than the crowd. That's it. Equal rights, not special rights.

Kevins said...

So if you think it’s wrong to discriminate, then why are we having this debate? A preference is a choice, and I don’t see you discriminating against African-Americans because black is their preference for skin color. They have no more control over heir skin color than gays have over their genetic makeup. So according to your reasoning we should eliminate every flag, logo and trademark in favor of the American flag. That’s ridiculous. Just about every club, organization and group has it’s own symbol, logo or flag, and one group that honors the differences in people chose to display theirs. Another group of misguided people who support discrimination mistakenly thought this was a gay pride flag, and objected. Never mind that it is not, but even if it is it should not matter.
That’s a poor reason for wanting your flag displayed, just to see someone else’s taken down. That says a lot about you, and it’s not good. I did not attack anyone personally, I attacked the so-called love group and what they stand for, and I do know them. They are a group of paranoid, intolerant people.

Anonymous said...

Well then do we all agree that everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity no matter their sexual orientation or gender? Do we all agree?

Count Me Red said...

Good grief Kevin. Do you honestly think skin color is a preference? That an African-American just prefers to be black? Or that they could change the color of their skin if they preferred? I thought you were a grown man that has been previously employed, sorry, if you are a child then I am judging you too harshly. No hunny, people cannot change the color of their skin as a matter of preference (and I'm not talking about a suntan either).

The Diversity Club did not honor everyone's differences when they hung their gay pride flag. They got "in our face" when they were mad that the marriage amendment proposal passed. That's what that was about. Don't try to make them seem noble. It was their in your face temper tantrum. The grown-up signed on and we had dumb and dumber.

What are you talking about genetic makeup. Is that what you tell yourself? Sleeping with someone of your own sex is a CHOICE you make. You can do it, or not do it. You choose to sleep with men. You could also choose to sleep with a sheep. That wouldn't make you genetically altered, it would make you stupid.

You do not know the LOVE group. There you go again making stuff up. That is a gay pride flag. Have you been freeze dried since 1978 in some time warp somewhere. The whole world knows that is a gay pride flag. You can't prove otherwise. Making stuff up again.

Kevin, you simply must get out more. Take a day off from this computer addiction and see the world. There are good people out there. Even some good people that might not agree with you or your views. All we ask is that you leave our children alone. Why do you have to go into our schools, can't you play with kids your own age?

Mike MacTavish said...

I don't care what gay people do as consenting adults, but they do not need to be pushing their agenda in our schools.

Anonymous said...

The only agenda being pushed was respect and dignity. You and those like you believed something very different.

People know if they are homosexual by the time they are in high school. It isn't a choice.

Jim Pratt said...

Kevin said:
" So if you think it’s wrong to discriminate, then why are we having this debate?"

And Anonymous said:
"Well then do we all agree that everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity no matter their sexual orientation or gender? Do we all agree?"

I would say that is EXACTLY the point that the LOVE side, and those who support traditional values, were trying to make through all of this.

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect. EQUALLY. No special favor towards ANY group. No discrimination towards ANY group, because, by definition, to favor one means to take opportunity away from another.

And, at the same time, the protection of young people against "promoting behaviors as acceptable, that might cost them their life".

There is a very valid line of reasoning that says we should not promote, as "normal", behaviors which may jeopardize the health and safety of young people, at an age where they may not understand the ramifications of their behaviour. We should not, as a society, promote in our schools, any behaviour that is could cost our young people thier lives. We should not say that sexual activity of any kind, outside of marriage, is an acceptable behaviour for a young person to experiment with, because that behavior can and does transmit life threatening disease. It is just as valid whether is it hetero or homosexual activity. Both are activities that should be discourages, rather than encouraged, as the high school and junior high school level.

Just as we should not promote a "safer way to drink and drive" to teens by drinking 3.2 beer (Like they used to try to do years ago- to those of us who remember 3.2 beer), we should not, as a society, promote ANY risky behaviour.

Again, it is a different point of view than others.

But to those who subscribe to this point of view, it is a view that has merit, and is worth bringing into the discussion. I subscribe to this view, this "value", as do many, many others in this community.

Page Field said...

Here's my two cents:

I agree the flag should come down because of all the distractions it causes. Frankly I believe it boils down to a bad choice of picking a flag that is close to, or very similar to the Gay Pride flag. The ideas behind the diversity club and policy of HPS I completely approve of. Plenty of organizations have had a similar problem of being hijacked by the Rainbow Flag. University of Hawaii and Jesse Jackson's Rainbow coalition both suffered distractions because of the "Rainbow" design used in their respective logos. It's too bad because it makes it difficult to use the rainbow concept in any graphic.

Now that the Love Group has claimed victory (according Mr. Flynn) does that mean they will go away?

Finally my thesis:

You are either born gay or you are born straight. IT IS NOT A LEARNED BEHAVIOR. Anyone saying different is spreading propaganda.

Patrick Flynn said...

Your thesis is an opinion that is not supported by science.

Page Field said...

Nice try Patrick Flynn

It is not a learned behavior. You are born that way and you know it. Basic observation sheds plenty of truth on my "opinionated" thesis. I've never seen or heard of someone deciding to be gay. If they came out of the closet and announced they were gay, that was because they were gay the entire time and living within a lie was too much. I know its pointless to make these arguments because it becomes a major conflict for many religons.

I feel sorry for you. Frankly I feel sorry for the entire LOVE group.

Count Me Red said...

And Page Field,we feel sorry for you. Being a Homosexual means "you have a tendency to direct your sexual desires toward someone of the same sex". Lots of people have sexual tendencies of one sort or another, some choose to act on them and some don't. It is still a CHOICE. Using your thesis, how would you explain Bi-sexuals? It is still a choice to act on a desire. But we are way off track. We were talking about CHILDREN who should not be having sex with any one of any gender.

Mr. Pratt, nice to see you back.

Mr. Flynn, you continue to be a voice of sanity and common sense. It's very refreshing. After reading your comments, I always feel like I just had a shower.

Page - You are kidding about who won the flag issue right? Who wanted the flags down? LOVE
Who got the flags down? LOVE
That looks like a win. I don't want to rub your nose in it, but come on, let's not be silly here.

Patrick Flynn said...

Don't feel sorry for me. Just please drop the politics and deal with the hard truth.

Homosexuality was removed from the Psychiatric industry's list of disorders in 1973 by politics, not science. There was no medical or scientific research or data that predicated this. What there was, was pressure from the left.

Homosexual desires are not chosen. They are real. But they are disordered. Many likely causes have been discovered through extensive research of late. The "gay" gene, however has been found to be completely baseless in scientific fact.

Homosexual behavior, on the other hand IS chosen. And human history shows as hard as it may be, it's best by far not to choose it.

Once Homosexual men and women come to terms with the fact that they have a disorder, they begin to improve their lives by quantum leaps. This is great because we are supposed to love them and this way, they begin to discover healing options in their lives and don't have to die. Yes, I have seen them die up close and personally. And it is a great tradegy to see someone die because they felt they had no options but to choose a behavior that leaves them empty, and emotionally and physically devastated.

You might hate my answer. I don't really care. If I can ask one thing of you though, I will. Would you please start loving homosexual people enough to stop lying to them? That would be great and there would be less suffering in our culture.

I joined the LOVE organization because these people understand this complex human dilemma and are doing their best to apply Christian benevolence to a difficult situation.

Patrick Flynn said...

God bless you, Red. And you too, Mr. Pratt.

Count Me Red said...

I can assure you that taking down the flags will not make LOVE go away. We have more school board elections to win and we are going to tackle the efforts of our Superintendent of Student Curriculum, Jeannie Farina, to change the sex education class by offering phaphlets to 7th graders (12 to 14 years of age) to instruct them on how to put on a condom and why they would want to. These kids have parents, and we will not allow them to be replaced by any teacher.

We were also very disappointed that all the new hires this year are all white. We doubt this school administration really cares about anything other than sexual diversity, and they have proven that tolerance means tolerance only for gays and lesbians. Yes, there is still a lot of work to do. These are OUR schools and OUR children, and we vow to take them back.

Mike MacTavish said...

Thank God for private schools.

Page Field said...

Thank you Mr. Flynn for your response

If being a homosexual is a disorder why are there so few treatments or successful treatments to re-orient people to being straight? I have heard of some successful transformations but these are rare relative to the number of homosexuals in the world.

The problem is I've been around lots of gay people my adult life. They all knew it form the get go they were gay. I can't say their lives were empty or had no meaning. No more than a average straight person's life.

The HHS Diversity Club was not promoting a gay lifestyle. They were teaching tolerance. Tolerance is not a code-word for promoting. The bottom line is the group will be active next school year, but just won't have a fixed flag, which I agree with the flag should not be perminant. If the only concern of the LOVE group is the flag than congrats on your victory. Meanwhile the Diversity Club continues doing their mission. I hope the LOVE Group shows respect. If not it will tear this community apart. Especially in light of the two high schools splitting the community. Now is the time to be unified and show understanding. If not than send your kids to private school or home school. Howell Public Schools are doing a good job. It's a much improved school system compared to the 60's or 70's.

Page Field said...

Mr. Count Me Red

Sex Education at the 7 grade level and 8th grade level is not new. This has been been around a long time. Last I knew the parent can option their child not to take class. I'm not familiar with what Ms. Farina was recommending but I can't believe it would be much different than what I had in Sex Ed.

Count Me Red said...

Page Field - We have a sex ed. program and parents can opt-out; however, a pamphlet explaining how to put on a condom and why you would want to is a little over the top (12 years old). Pamphlets can show up in places they shouldn't. Promoting sexual activity with 12 year olds is not necessary and I would say is irresponsible. There is no SAFE sex. Any sex could result in STD's, pregnancy, HIV and many other diseases. Page, in your day, I'll bet you didn't get a definition of "anal sex" (their words) or "homosexuality" (again their words). Keep in mind 12 years old??? These are still our kids and it is our job to protect them. There is some information that could be imparted at age 12, but not the proper use of a condom. Do we have to go there?

Republican Michigander said...

Let's not get graphic here. Kids could read this. I understand Count Me Red's point, but if any "descriptions" or anything more graphic that what's here so far is mentioned, it's going to get deleted.

I'd like to keep this blog rated PG.

Page Field said...

Count Me Red

I can't comment completely because I don't know the current Sex Ed coursework at HPS.

In my sex education class they did cover homosexual content. Trust me this was a long time ago. The Watergate trials were going on while I had the course, (73?)